Ashing Murphy murder...A case for reviewing the self defence and less leathl carry laws in ireland
Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2024 9:02 pm
With the end of the tragic Ashling Murphy trial. We've been thinking, is it time in Ireland for an "Ashlings law"?A law that would allow Irish citizens to carry a less lethal option for self-defence in public? IE pepper spray or a stun gun?
Both items are considered "prohibited weapons" under the 1925/7 Firearms Act here in Ireland, and self-defence is frowned upon except in "proportional response" and only with whatever is to hand at the time.
IOW you can't carry something specific for self-defence on your person, but you must improvise as the situation evolves. So Ashling if she had managed to grab a rock, or bottle while that perverted creep was strangling her and walloped him in the side of the head before she was stabbed 11 times. It would be a legitimate self-defence. But she would have been looking at FIVE YEARS of jail time for carrying a 10 euro can of pepper spray, freely available in most kiosks in some EU countries as it is on par with carrying an illegal handgun for the same purposes. Same as if she had taken a can of oven cleaner for self-defence purposes. The law would have looked at this as going prepared for an attack in the eyes of the law. This is surely to anyone with a lick of sense a ridiculous situation to be in if you are a woman or of a smaller statue when accosted and attacked by a stronger opponent
We are surprised that many of the women's groups are so against this idea here. The usual squawks of "America's mad gun culture" "men should be taught not to rape and respect women"Misogyny must end by educating boys" etc, etc are trotted out. or pathetic suggestions like complying with the rapist, urinating on them learning self-defence martial arts etc is suggested as alternatives.Maybe in some Marvel universe film where strong empowered 5foot nothing women can chuck squads of 240 lb 6foot plus bad guys about with ease, as no doubt they have some superpower.However in this universe where laws of physics apply and reality does too.I'm afraid there is a requirement for someone weaker to have a force equaliser . Unless you are Katie Taylor and are going into a boxing ring with rules and referees. your chances as a 60kg woman going up against a 220lb 6foot plus man are slim to none. Especially,if they are on drugs or otherwise intent on doing harm
Compliance has not worked many times as numerous rape-murder victims have found out and why is it somehow morally superior to be raped and strangled than to fight to the death as Ashling did and maybe would have survived had she been able to spray her attacker or ram 500,000 volts into his groin? You might poo-poo this idea as too far out and not shooting-related.
Firearms usage is relevant in self-defence situations here in Ireland, and if there is an interest in this topic. Please feel free to start a thread here on FUNI as we don't shy away from taboos here.[ Despite having the odd loon scream abuse and claim we are the greatest threat to shooting sports in Ireland]
It is something that should be discussed as sooner or later someone WILL use their legally held firearm and there WiLL be an avoidable death and court case and fallout....In fact, it has already happened with a legally held handgun by a barrister in a trespassing dispute...However, as this is a sub judicie case. We will not discuss this further here until it has been tried in a court of law. But I will say, this could have been avoided if the defendant had had some basic firearms training with an eye to self-defence.
But what happens, and it will, to maybe your daughter, wife, mother, girlfriend, or colleague in the future? How many more bereaved families will stand outside our courts reading victim statements to the media on the loss of a loved one, if they are lucky and a perpetrator is caught? Is it really that much of a worry to the Gardai and Govt that there will be a sudden upsurge and "misuse of a potentially lethal weapon" by the general public? Strange that you never hear of people misusing this freely available product in the European countries where it is available, and we would question the anecdotal evidence of people choking and dying from being sprayed with pepper spray during robberies. It would suggest that maybe people who were in these situations were already suffering underlying health conditions and the trauma plus the spray might have exacerbated their conditions leading to their deaths.
The only way of being killed by CS or pepper spray would be to be locked in a sealed chamber and have the stuff remove any oxygen from the person within. If this is such a concern to the powers that be. It is surely not beyond our ken to create a license system along the German Klein waffen schein[Small weapons permit] that allows you to carry pepper spray or a stun gun in a public place, or even a blank-firing pistol that can fire pepper rounds.
You acquire it at your local police precinct for 30 euros.
Even the fact that pepper spray can have an indelible dye added to identify any aggressor or victim of misuse should remove some of this fear of authorities' boogeymen. Or maybe it's not about giving women a chance to defend themselves with a, more or less, effective item? Is it more about control by the state that even would callously disregard the lives of its female citizens in the fear of "weapons proliferation in public hands" and that its citizens might start thinking that they can defend themselves and don't need the omnipotent state forces to protect them?
Any police officer worth their pay will tell you a police force can mostly only REACT to a crime. Like coming to pick up the pieces, tape out where the body was found and offer a statement to the media.it is in very few cases they can proact a crime being committed NOR as has been proven in many cases around the Western world, are police officers obliged to protect you or your property from harm! A Garda could have been standing there at that canal bank while this attempted rape-murder was going on and if in their opinion there was no breach of the peace going on, Mr Pushka and Ashling could have continued their life-or-death struggle.
Hopefully, our police force hasn't sunk to that degree of indifference and would ignore such a crime and be more concerned with applying the full vigour of the law to people with differing opinions on social media, like their UK colleagues seem to do these days. But it is a point that AGS are under no obligation to protect you either. The bottom line is this in Ireland you do have a right to defend your life as you do have a fundamental right to life in our constitution with deadly force if need be in the Ultima Ratio[final argument] situation. Same as you do not need to retreat in your house and can defend it with our, more or less, Castle doctrine here in Ireland. But what you cannot do is acquire the moat, dragons, pikes boiling tar etc[or handgun or short-barrelled shotgun etc] to defend your castle, same as you can't carry a sword or armour,[pepperspray stun gun]when out and about.
Isnt it about time we change this scenario, and appeal this to our current woman minister for Justice and young mother Helen McEntee who surely with her progressive agenda must recognise that all the progressive's politics, ideals and agendas will not save another woman's life in the same ghastly situation? We owe it to Ashling and her family that her death was not in vain and that with a simple change of the law, her death would change the law to at least give others a fighting chance should they ever run into such a situation. Ashling would probably agree.
Both items are considered "prohibited weapons" under the 1925/7 Firearms Act here in Ireland, and self-defence is frowned upon except in "proportional response" and only with whatever is to hand at the time.
IOW you can't carry something specific for self-defence on your person, but you must improvise as the situation evolves. So Ashling if she had managed to grab a rock, or bottle while that perverted creep was strangling her and walloped him in the side of the head before she was stabbed 11 times. It would be a legitimate self-defence. But she would have been looking at FIVE YEARS of jail time for carrying a 10 euro can of pepper spray, freely available in most kiosks in some EU countries as it is on par with carrying an illegal handgun for the same purposes. Same as if she had taken a can of oven cleaner for self-defence purposes. The law would have looked at this as going prepared for an attack in the eyes of the law. This is surely to anyone with a lick of sense a ridiculous situation to be in if you are a woman or of a smaller statue when accosted and attacked by a stronger opponent
We are surprised that many of the women's groups are so against this idea here. The usual squawks of "America's mad gun culture" "men should be taught not to rape and respect women"Misogyny must end by educating boys" etc, etc are trotted out. or pathetic suggestions like complying with the rapist, urinating on them learning self-defence martial arts etc is suggested as alternatives.Maybe in some Marvel universe film where strong empowered 5foot nothing women can chuck squads of 240 lb 6foot plus bad guys about with ease, as no doubt they have some superpower.However in this universe where laws of physics apply and reality does too.I'm afraid there is a requirement for someone weaker to have a force equaliser . Unless you are Katie Taylor and are going into a boxing ring with rules and referees. your chances as a 60kg woman going up against a 220lb 6foot plus man are slim to none. Especially,if they are on drugs or otherwise intent on doing harm
Compliance has not worked many times as numerous rape-murder victims have found out and why is it somehow morally superior to be raped and strangled than to fight to the death as Ashling did and maybe would have survived had she been able to spray her attacker or ram 500,000 volts into his groin? You might poo-poo this idea as too far out and not shooting-related.
Firearms usage is relevant in self-defence situations here in Ireland, and if there is an interest in this topic. Please feel free to start a thread here on FUNI as we don't shy away from taboos here.[ Despite having the odd loon scream abuse and claim we are the greatest threat to shooting sports in Ireland]
It is something that should be discussed as sooner or later someone WILL use their legally held firearm and there WiLL be an avoidable death and court case and fallout....In fact, it has already happened with a legally held handgun by a barrister in a trespassing dispute...However, as this is a sub judicie case. We will not discuss this further here until it has been tried in a court of law. But I will say, this could have been avoided if the defendant had had some basic firearms training with an eye to self-defence.
But what happens, and it will, to maybe your daughter, wife, mother, girlfriend, or colleague in the future? How many more bereaved families will stand outside our courts reading victim statements to the media on the loss of a loved one, if they are lucky and a perpetrator is caught? Is it really that much of a worry to the Gardai and Govt that there will be a sudden upsurge and "misuse of a potentially lethal weapon" by the general public? Strange that you never hear of people misusing this freely available product in the European countries where it is available, and we would question the anecdotal evidence of people choking and dying from being sprayed with pepper spray during robberies. It would suggest that maybe people who were in these situations were already suffering underlying health conditions and the trauma plus the spray might have exacerbated their conditions leading to their deaths.
The only way of being killed by CS or pepper spray would be to be locked in a sealed chamber and have the stuff remove any oxygen from the person within. If this is such a concern to the powers that be. It is surely not beyond our ken to create a license system along the German Klein waffen schein[Small weapons permit] that allows you to carry pepper spray or a stun gun in a public place, or even a blank-firing pistol that can fire pepper rounds.
You acquire it at your local police precinct for 30 euros.
Even the fact that pepper spray can have an indelible dye added to identify any aggressor or victim of misuse should remove some of this fear of authorities' boogeymen. Or maybe it's not about giving women a chance to defend themselves with a, more or less, effective item? Is it more about control by the state that even would callously disregard the lives of its female citizens in the fear of "weapons proliferation in public hands" and that its citizens might start thinking that they can defend themselves and don't need the omnipotent state forces to protect them?
Any police officer worth their pay will tell you a police force can mostly only REACT to a crime. Like coming to pick up the pieces, tape out where the body was found and offer a statement to the media.it is in very few cases they can proact a crime being committed NOR as has been proven in many cases around the Western world, are police officers obliged to protect you or your property from harm! A Garda could have been standing there at that canal bank while this attempted rape-murder was going on and if in their opinion there was no breach of the peace going on, Mr Pushka and Ashling could have continued their life-or-death struggle.
Hopefully, our police force hasn't sunk to that degree of indifference and would ignore such a crime and be more concerned with applying the full vigour of the law to people with differing opinions on social media, like their UK colleagues seem to do these days. But it is a point that AGS are under no obligation to protect you either. The bottom line is this in Ireland you do have a right to defend your life as you do have a fundamental right to life in our constitution with deadly force if need be in the Ultima Ratio[final argument] situation. Same as you do not need to retreat in your house and can defend it with our, more or less, Castle doctrine here in Ireland. But what you cannot do is acquire the moat, dragons, pikes boiling tar etc[or handgun or short-barrelled shotgun etc] to defend your castle, same as you can't carry a sword or armour,[pepperspray stun gun]when out and about.
Isnt it about time we change this scenario, and appeal this to our current woman minister for Justice and young mother Helen McEntee who surely with her progressive agenda must recognise that all the progressive's politics, ideals and agendas will not save another woman's life in the same ghastly situation? We owe it to Ashling and her family that her death was not in vain and that with a simple change of the law, her death would change the law to at least give others a fighting chance should they ever run into such a situation. Ashling would probably agree.